Clients Services Technologies Blog Cognicast Contact About. I should really hand it over to you and say, "Hey, man. CRAIG: You have been listening to The Cognicast. Maybe somebody was making a call with bad data and it crashed the supplier. Maybe it doesn't make sense to go there right now, but it's fascinating to think about how you can create systems wherein the organization acts in its own best interest, if that's the right way to put it. And let me find ways to either invert these dependencies, break them, turn a hard dependency into a soft dependency," meaning it doesn't cause a failure in the consumer if the supplier fails, "or factor dependencies out so two teams are independent from each other but each have a dependency on something new that we can put under a high SLA.". I wonder what you would like to tell us today. Of course, now that's the sort of thing where, okay, if I want to view it as building a factory, well, of course I need to be able to change it because the factory is producing widgets today, but tomorrow it needs to produce wadgets. I think we've talked many times before about music on this show, and there's something about it as an art form that's unique. But, for example, imagine that every message you pass on the wire includes a URN to someplace where I can go and look at that message format. You're not the first person, by the way, to make that comparison even on this show around it being beyond simply listening. Not just understand what the lines are, but be able to understand what they mean behind it and what you can interpret about a company by looking at those things. CRAIG: Mm-hmm. We're always happy to hear from you. Before I dragged you off into talking about factories making factories to make factories, bring me back to the arch. I think I'm fair in saying in the series you were implying that you would make it easy to deal with through practice in doing so, but also of course through infrastructure to handle that. The point about asynchrony made me think because I certainly have that–I don't know what you want to call it–predilection for viewing things as synchronous even though, if you look at the real world, especially right now, when you think about the impetus towards sending a text message instead of picking up the phone and calling. They also come from, I think, an increasing sophistication in our management structures and the processes by which we deliver things. Yeah, so the non-intuitive result is that, in a given crowd of people, in a given group of people, the probability that two people have the same birthday somewhere in that group goes up much faster than our intuition would say. So the machinery that you use to produce the factory is also something that we need to keep around and maintain. He shares his passion and energy for improvement with everyone he meets, sometimes even with their permission. I've said before that I think – I'm going to maybe catch flack for this, but I think JSON was really a step backwards from XML. MICHAEL: You may be in the middle of swapping out a bunch of hardware as part of a routine refresh cycle and then some other piece of equipment fails that tries to redirect all the load to the machines that you're swapping out. You even have the option of doing that as a fallback. If you're thinking about giving a talk, and you should, make sure you get your proposal in before that deadline. MICHAEL: Well, I think as we go through this series, you know the earlier parts are really about explaining why we need to change or why a certain group of companies are doing things so differently. CRAIG: Cool. This has been The Cognicast. Congratulations on that. I haven't articulated all this up, which is why Part 11 isn't up yet, but I think of these as sort of safety factors. You talk a bit about Agile, for instance, and how Agile can be naïvely applied. Michael Nygard mtnygard. This series you're writing, share a little bit." Cognitect. CRAIG: Yeah, I think that's right. Something they've had told to them or whatever it is. Cognitect, Inc. Speaker site. This is why it's taken me so many words to articulate this whole thing because it does spring from some different premises. No process. MICHAEL: Well, I've had to answer this question a few times now, so I keep having to dig farther and farther back. MICHAEL: Yeah, you kind of grabbed me by the lapels. I love it. Thanks for listening! This was the era of the tandem computer. I'm going to undo that. But another is that I think there's a sense in which what we do is fundamentally different from building a building in that I think it's maybe more like building a factory. Well, anyway, so that's awesome advice, but we are wrapping it up here, so I can't forget and I cannot do this enough, but thank you so much for coming on today. CRAIG: Yeah, it's like 22. The problem is your company will do something crazy like acquire another company. As with anything, and as we always say at the end of every show, we do welcome feedback, either via Twitter @Cognitect or you can email us at You can also subscribe to the podcast using our podcast feed. I have friends–I'm sure you do have have–that are serious audiophiles and have really gone to great lengths to set up that type of environment. But also to leave room for anything. Oh, that button turns everything into," I don't know, "Klingon. They're also kind of self-supporting, right? But still, in your words, what is it about? MICHAEL: Yeah, exactly. He has lived with systems in production and learned hard lessons about the importance of operations. You create multiple instances of services. CRAIG: Yeah. When we're horizontally scaling, if you run the probability, the odds of having everything working at any given moment in time are actually not great. But, increasingly, the workloads we're handling require horizontal scaling, not vertical scaling. Yup. Episode cover art is by Michael Parenteau, audio production by Russ Olsen and Daemian Mack. But I've found that, by and large, when I'm listening to CDs and I'm trying to figure out what to add to my library to listen to again later, I almost always skip the live ones. For instance, pushing a rewritten history to a branch that was previously pushed. Well, I think everybody can agree that painful deployments are worse than easy deployments. Kind of weaving those things together and saying, "What does this all mean?" It's fascinating to me. MICHAEL: You can do a speculative value of the DB, so there are a couple of other principles to creating safety. CRAIG: Yeah. Michael Nygard is an architect at Cognitect, the company behind Clojure, ClojureScript, Pedestal, and Datomic. Context ... about Cognitect. You could still use un-namespace keywords and have a repository in your team of what this particular piece of data means exactly. CRAIG: Every last person you meet is like that, and still – and still you wind up with a direction that is, to put it generously, suboptimal. Discussion points: Well, I'll say I've never developed the audio engineering expertise to achieve that in a home setup. I am wondering too. Episodes? CRAIG: Yeah. Want to chat more about Simulation Testing. We're hitting its peak, perhaps. MICHAEL: The collected advice of The Cognicast. See All by Michael Nygard . I was trying to marry that up with the idea that you deposit early on, and I don't think you would claim it's your idea, but the idea that if something happens and it's bad, you don't want to create a process that makes it less likely to happen. If your assumptions are different and your premises are different then, yeah, the conclusions will look insane. October 17, 2013 Tweet Share More Decks by Michael Nygard. CRAIG: Mm-hmm. MICHAEL: Yeah, and he wasn't even deliberately harming it. I don't think everybody has read it, but I'm sure some people have. One of the elements that I try to address is the question of risk and risk management. It embodies old architectures. MICHAEL: Okay. Otherwise you're really not separated at all. I actually do think that Agile development is a great way to handle things at the team scale. But another kind of breakdown is a technological breakdown. It's actually part of the functionality of the system. You have to have a plan, even if you also need to have flexibility. You have to have a strategy. We've been thinking a lot about spec recently, obviously clojure.spec. This is just another good reason to have you on today to correct me and to explain about the series and about some of the really interesting things you had to say in there. MICHAEL: Well, the next piece that we really haven't talked about is a question of sort of durability of the software and whether we should think of it as an asset or a liability. We like to work with you on the hard stuff. We have the ability to do automatic migrations at this point, so some of the techniques that Jez Humble talks about in Continuous Delivery work really well for this too. I guess what I'm wondering is what your thoughts are on using URLs as keys because what you're talking about is, if I imagine the data going in and out of some service, is a map, which I think is a reasonable thing to do. I definitely can. As you may have noticed, the Cognicast has finally made its way to its new home here at! Anyway, do you think that would make sense, or is there a good way to spend a few more minutes kind of wrapping up what's out there so far? They say something typically condescending like, "We need to have some grownups around here," or, "It's time to get serious," or something like that. MICHAEL: Well, I think we jumped ahead a bit. I think if you kind of look at the way that TDD or whatever you want to call it, say what you will about any particular manifestation of that philosophy, I do think most people would agree that having developers write tests, think about testing is useful. You have to do a bunch of things together, incrementally, one little step at a time. I just don't want to put words in his mouth. on Twitter; on Github; on the Web; on LinkedIn; Music. A phone call is synchronous, right? And so people will focus on one aspect and you'll get a mandate from your CTO that says, "We have to rebuild everything as microservices," because they pick up on that salient fact. But the technical aspect of getting access was probably much easier than the political aspect or the inter-team communication needed to make sure you were going to be allowed to use their service. He has spoken about “architecture without an end state” at numerous O’Reilly Software Architecture events, and he is the author of the book "Release It! As AI advances further, the need for a simplified, easy-to-use programming platform has become a necessity among organizations. Yeah, that'll be fun, and I'm glad we did that because I think it'll make a good set of bookends. CRAIG: Mm-hmm. Michael has 9 jobs listed on their profile. The business couldn't assimilate change as rapidly as we were creating it. It was like, "Oh, my gosh. CRAIG: Yeah. And so that's going to let you, if you want to subscribe to just the transcripts or, in addition, subscribe to the transcripts. I've been to a number of places where they have these very large monolithic code bases, some of them ten years old or more. What happens? We talk with Michael Nygard about simulation testing. A year later, and one project manager different, the team room was disbanded. We certainly don't have to stop right now, but do you think it would make sense to kind of make this part one of two and come back maybe after you've had a chance to write a few more episodes in your series? Block or report user Block or report mtnygard. And so that number, even though you start with a very small probability, you exponentiate it and then subtract one from that, and that number goes towards one very, very quickly. We frequently talk about Clojure, ClojureScript, Datomic, agile software development, ... Michael Nygard - Cognicast Episode 141. Hope you find that helpful. Of course, I have to provide enough technical documentation and visibility that they can do that. You're going to call someone. All right, well, we'll begin then. We are a collection of experienced, thoughtful technologists, passionate about helping organizations deploy … That's actually something that, on rereading the series, I really started to see that theme, I think, which is one that I like a lot, the idea of, well, step back and take a look at the big picture. Design and Deploy Production-Ready Software This episode is sponsored by Pivotal. But I wonder whether it's more like building a factory because, first of all, a program, we write source code to produce a program. We will be happy to have you back again, Mike. CRAIG: Right. No governance. You have even a higher level of negotiation to go through. Sort of once you had the credentials, and once you were able to talk to it, maybe it met your needs. At that point we're starting to make even the language of the system be explicit and discoverable and usable without permission. I'm your host, Craig Andera. That feeling has still stayed with me. MICHAEL: Yeah, but that notion of namespace is of providing some context for interpretation around the semantics of a message. But this misses the real benefit around maneuverability, argued Michael Nygard, an enterprise architect with Cognitect. It's great to have you back. That program then runs, and it maybe runs many times over the course of its lifetime. If you extend your viewpoint out to the organizational scale, if you require outages in order to deploy software, you have to coordinate deployments across teams. The title is The New Normal. MICHAEL: I think the thing about the music being performed live, and particularly in a concert hall, is that it surrounds you to such a degree that it's almost a tactile experience as well as an auditory one. Then the other is kind of giving the team tools so that they know what they're doing and they don't create problems for others as a process. But let's see. : Design and Deploy Production-Ready Software by Michael T. Nygard The Circuit Breaker Pattern Designing Software to Get Past 1.0 07:15 - Upfront Architecture Agile Software Development What does … And I don't see that coming out of any of the large-scale Agile efforts. They're going to answer. Hear Michael Nygard at QCon San Francisco, Michael Nygard strives to raise the bar and ease the pain for developers around the world. We were talking about live music earlier. Michael works for Cognitect Inc., the company behind Clojure, ClojureScript, Pedestal, and Datomic. Michael Nygard - November 15, 2011 agility architecture. MICHAEL: Okay. Michael Nygard. If you're looking for a great podcast to listen to, our CTO, Michael Nygard 1 was interviewed recently by Freek Leemhuis over at Devnology 2.Michael and Freek talk about high-reliability teams and stressful situations, architectural patterns and what it … But I feel like there's something about using namespace keywords that makes that easier that maybe now you can have some sort of registry where you can keep documentation and it doesn't have to be attached to that particular service and that that might somehow aid people in navigating the sea of capabilities within an organization. As soon as you get two computers interacting, there's the possibility that one of them breaks and the other one doesn't. The opportunity grants are awarded to people to assist them to attend if they would not otherwise be able to. Hear Michael Nygard at QCon San Francisco, Michael Nygard strives to raise the bar and ease the pain for developers around the world. Or Git, right? You're going to talk back, whatever. Michael Nygard Cognitect. Follow (Aggregation is alpha and subject to change.) Ashley Williams, core Rust team @RustLang; See all 54 QCon Plus speakers . I don't want to go too far beyond that. It is actually pretty important. I wonder, though, whether that experience was special to you because it was live, because I've been thinking a bit about live music recently, or if it was just the level of performance and the fact that you were there in person was less of a factor. All right, well, cool. It's been great, so thanks a lot for coming on the show today. @mtnygard. I'm not likely to address it in this series. Cognitect Support; Query; Aggregation Michael Nygard January 08, 2016 18:15. I guess we even got a little bit of a peak into the stuff you're working on, which is awesome. We went all the way down into technical and all the way up into the organizational philosophical. The Cognicast is produced by Kim Foster. One, it's a handshake to initiate a conversation just like a TCP three-phase handshake. The problem is that the policy number doesn't give me any context about where it came from or where I can go to exchange it for more info. He decided it would never happen again, so he ordered something like four months' worth of parts. The way to look at this is to keep saying, "What is the coupling between my team and other teams? I really probably shouldn't put too many words in your mouth. Yeah, our guests have said such wonderful, wonderful, inspiring, interesting, and practical things. So by embracing this anti-fragile approach and embracing continuous partial failure, we actually get the ability to do deployments much more frequently. The O’Reilly Programming Podcast: Embracing late changes, plurality, and decentralization. Michael is based in the United States. They push their assembly, and then that dependency is incompatible with everyone else and the whole rest of the application doesn't work. You're falling into a trap that I often fall into, which is explaining one domain people don't understand by likening it to another domain they don't understand. MICHAEL: Yeah. The O’Reilly Programming Podcast: Embracing late changes, plurality, and decentralization. MICHAEL: Right. CRAIG: That's not a bad idea. Maybe it didn't. Yup. But if that fails, I'm going to drop something in a queue. Well, that was a fascinating divergence. That's when people really get into trouble. Michael Nygard. Yeah, you wouldn't. But even if you just treat it as documentation, it's useful to have that idea that I can publish my message types for my service, and I can publish it without permission and other people can use it without permission. But it's also remarkably practical, and so that is an excellent addition to our rapidly growing stable of really good advice, so thanks for that. I have the amusing experience of explaining this, explaining the chaos monkey, that thing that Netflix has that you mention that runs around and actually knocks over various bits of their infrastructure to some people who hadn't been exposed to it. As opposed to Bruce Dickenson yelling, "I can't hear you!". As you may have noticed, the Cognicast has finally made its way to its new home here at! It's the abnormal state. Nothing has changed there. :Design and Deploy Production Ready Software“; What DevOps really is; The values of DevOps and its relationship to the Agile Manifesto Where were we? Sometimes it's just about dependencies. Because deploying software looks like a failure in the service that's being deployed, and so everything is just going to continue functioning happily as you deploy your software. They're building this big data streaming platform on top of Kafka. CRAIG: I was just trying to marry that up, and I think it works very well. You can do any crazy crap you want as long as you have confidence that undo is going to get you back to where you were. All Topics How We Work Events Customer Stories Technology Testing The New Normal Open Source RSS Feed. Cognitect Support; Data Modeling; Component Attributes Michael Nygard September 19, 2017 07:25. Well, awesome. But it doesn't act very much like an asset. You need to be able to create customers in that database. This talk reminds us, in the industry from which we borrowed the term, "coupling" was not a dirty word. Michael T. Nygard Cognitect @mtnygard Thursday, October 17, 13. CRAIG: Right, right. We think that's pretty cool. It's likely that something is malfunctioning or something is being deployed somewhere in your network at all times. Prevent this user from interacting with your repositories and sending you notifications. Yeah, that's not a bad idea at all. You've sort of been building a story arch, I think it's fair to say, as you've made these posts. It's almost like the live concert version of your album, right? Overall, the idea is once you've created team scale autonomy, there will be social forces trying to tear it down and reconstruct the command and control structure because it's just sort of a natural primate instinct. Yeah. Everybody publishes their own thing because the risk to our organization of being as slow as the governance makes us go is greater than the risk of occasional system breakage. CRAIG: I'm interested to come and explore this a little bit because I've had problems with the building metaphor for quite a while, I think, for a variety of reasons. Yeah, they're mutually reinforcing ideas, which is why kind of laying them out in a linear fashion in words is challenging. CRAIG: It gives them semantics without making me take on the burden of saying it every time I express some fact. CRAIG: Well, it's good stuff, and I really want to share with our audience. Michael Nygard knows this—which is why he's turned to the language of warfare to describe the ongoing campaign that is the agile workflow. It's a breakdown of boundaries. One of the questions that really vexes me, and maybe our listeners can write comments about how to avoid this, but how do we find high performance methods that are robust and self-correcting against single individuals who operate not in accord with the method? Block or report user Block or report mtnygard. The program itself is static. I'm talking about team scale agreements. It's like a soccer team, I think is how I heard it described, or a soccer game, but it's a very low number. When you do that, not only is your total risk reduced, but you can actually do things like deliver software all the time whenever the team feels like it instead of trying to wait for 2: 00 in the morning when the traffic is low and you can take an outage. Clearly you think deeply about this stuff. I was talking to myself the other day. Interesting. Maybe you define that as your business unit, your division, or something like that. When a message is received, you can take the token that represents the type of message and go look up the definition. Whereas text messages are asynchronous, and we seem to have, for reasons that maybe aren't super helpful in this conversation, but still we seem to have a strong preference for that asynchronous mode of communication in that realm, even though you're holding the device that is perfectly capable of communicating with the same person synchronously. Michael Nygard, achitect @Cognitect & author of the bestseller "Release It!" One is shrinking the failure domains, and that's largely a technical exercise of drawing different architectural boundaries and having different ways of handling calls across those boundaries that are safer. How do you make it in people's best interest? I've also observed that there are a number of sort of high velocity, high performance methods, I'll call them, that are fragile to having one person who doesn't understand it acting in some way. MICHAEL: I'd like to have preview. But the idea that you also are building, using, maintaining, consuming, producing other tools, to that end that those also have quality attributes that you should care about and invest in to appropriate degrees, I think, is a powerful one. You should, make sure you get your proposal in before that deadline developers ( mike ’ s profile LinkedIn! It 's really been cool to see how you might think: 180 bad and... Would often cause them to make the synchronous call the world you before we wind down that! 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